PM: Well, there's 33 of us, you know, 33 royal houses represented on the Council. Most of us are connected to one another at one point or another. So yes, most of us are of Grail families.
DR: Do all the Grail families kind of have a common goal? I mean, do they network and collaborate together for a specific cause?
PM: No, not particularly. At the end of the day, the idea is that, you know, all of us should be restored to where we belong. On an individual basis it's bad enough working for yourself, never mind having to help and try to work on behalf of somebody else as well. Europe is quite a big continent, you know. So no, it's more on an individualistic basis. But at present how the Council works is as a constitutional advisory body. So think in terms of Straussburg and Brussels legislating new laws. Every country in Europe has a written constitution. Some of that legislation will impinge upon on or two or three or more constitutions, so that's what we're dealing with. We're pointing out that this particular legislation, say, would not or could not apply to either Spain or Holland or whatever because of a particular point of their constitution. Either they amend that legislation or it's the constitution of that country that has to be amended, which of course becomes a bit frightening because you can make so many amendments that at the end of the day you produce a constitution which has nothing in common with the original one. So we'd rather change the legislation in Brussels of Strausburg against changing or amending a constitution in Europe.
DR: On your website you have a picture of the Honors of Scotland, and the "Stone of Destiny" is there. Is that the real one?
PM: No. (Laughs.) No, basically what Edward I was given in 1296 was a masonry stone, i.e. it's a stepping stone. And funnily enough, we had this symposium few months ago in Edinburgh, and, you know, you had several historians talking about the Stone, and this and that, whatever. And then we had a stone mason talking about the Stone and describing the Stone, and it was extremely boring and most of us were falling asleep until the chap said (and I quote): "...but the most interesting feature about the Stone is that it's a stepping stone and you step on it with your left foot." Well, I'm not joking; all the heads - and you have about 500 people in there - all the heads, it was like an American wave literally happening there. All the heads went up. And most of us actually said or thought: "Well, if that's the case then it's not the real thing." Because it's not for stepping, it's for sitting, and you would only sit on it once in your life, at your coronation. You would never step on it. And the fact is there is an indentation showing a step, a left foot step as the chap was explaining to us. So I know for a fact that what Edward I was given was not the Stone. And let's face it: it was not used as a coronation stone with the kings of England until Henry IV acceded to the throne of England. Not before then. And it was known as the Victory Stone, not the Stone of Destiny. It was merely known in England as the Victory Stone, and it was then entrusted to the monks of Westminster to commemorate St. Edward. But not before the accession of Henry IV was the Victory Stone brought from Scotland to London used as a coronation item as we're thinking of in England.
DR: Well, in the book, you say that you know where the Stone is, the real Stone.
PM: No, what I say is that the Stone is in Scotland, and it's probably in the trust of a family or families. Again it's that hereditary thing, you know, from father to son, or whatever, from father to daughter if you have no son. But Pat Gerber, who actually wrote a book on the Stone of Destiny, tends to believe that particular concept as well.
DR: What's his name?
PM: Pat Gerber. It's a she. She actually lectures at the University of Glasgow.
DR: So you don't know where it is specifically?
PM: I think it will be produced at the right time, basically. Whenever Scotland becomes independent, and whosoever will then succeed us as King of Scots, I think that the Stone will then be brought forward. The real thing.
DR: Do you know about any Merovingian descendants who are trying to reclaim the throne, the French throne?
PM: Oh, there is Ludwig of Anjou, who lives in Spain. He actually is the rightful heir to the throne of France. You can forget about, um, what's that chap's name again?
DR: Pierre Plantard?
PM: Pierre Plantard de Saint-Claire. No no. Forget about that.
DR: So what, he was lying?
PM: Yeah, I think it was more wishful thinking than anything else, personally. Yeah.
DR: So you dismiss all that.
PM: I dismiss the Plantard claim, yes.
DR: And the Prieuré de Sion? You dismiss them?
PM: Well, there certainly was once upon a time the Order of Sion, yes. Again, that became defunct in medieval days. I'm not saying that it didn't survive in some other means. It probably did. But again, you'll find that historically speaking the Holy Blood, Holy Grail book, for example, by Michael Baigent and so forth, what they forgot to say was that it wasn't until post-WWII that all organizations had to register, whether you were spiritual organization, temple or whatever. If you were an association of any kind, after WWII you had to register. Now WWII finished in 1945 and the Order of Sion as mentioned in Holy Blood, Holy Grail did not register before the late 1950s. So you have to ask yourself, you know, considering they had to register after 1946, why did they do it in 1958? And the answer to that is that they only became an association in 1958. It was only created in 1958.
DR: So what we know as the Prieuré de Sion today is probably not the real Order of Sion.
PM: It's not really the real Order, no. I'm quite sure that within some families the concept of the Order still applies. But it will be individuals that are descended from an organization which was prevalent in medieval days. It's like the Templars. You still have many families with Templar names today in France and Scotland and Portugal and such. And their ancestors were once upon a time Knights Templar. It can be said they are Templar families. But whether that makes, in effect, a live order or not, this where I have my doubts, because most of these, if you ask them: "Do you believe yourselves to be a member of the Order of Knights Templars?", the answer to that probably would be: "No, I don't." They would say: "My ancestor was a Knight Templar, but I am not."
DR: Well, that's kind of disappointing. I kind of liked the idea that was put forth in Holy Blood, Holy Grail. It was neat.
PM: Yeah, but it was too many ifs and whats, you see. That's the problem I had with that particular book. In Bloodline of the Holy Grail, we're concerned with, you know, a family tree. That's it. And of course it's a book about the history of the Church vs. the family. It's no longer ifs and whats. You've got dates, you've got names, you know, it's all there. The problem I have with claims of certain historians or researchers is what they are given, they are given this by some very weird individuals, and they tend to actually believe what they're told. I think it's very naive, personally. If Michael Baigent and Co. had actually checked the data they were given, I'm quite sure they would have thought twice before writing the book, or they would have written something in a different vein, still about this particular concept, but written differently. When the book came out, I was quite taken aback, because I thought to myself: Well, they haven't really done any research, because, they haven't really scratched the surface. In fact, they haven't really scratched at all. You've been given this data by one individual, claiming to be the head of one particular order. And they swallowed it, you know, like champagne. And it was an interesting book, but - which is why Bloodline of the Holy Grail was written, really, to put the whole thing back in perspective.
DR: So you would say that Pierre Plantard and friends are charlatans?
PM: I don't like the word "charlatans". I think, basically, like many people, he just jumped on the bandwagon. One thing you could say in your article is that Mary, Queen of Scots, for example, was very aware of her Merovingian and Davidic descent, because she actually had a book that had her family tree back to King David via Jesus and so forth. And that came from the Lorraine family, de Guise-Lorraine. And again, if you go back to The Forgotten Monarchy of Scotland then you see the descent of Marie de Guise-Lorraine from the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem, i.e. Baldwin II.
DR: I see. All right. Thank you very much.
PM: No problem Tracy. My pleasure.